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Giselle,
Your ethnography is very well written. That must have been a difficult interview to do! I like that you were open with your friend and shared your findings, even if you knew they contradicted her self image as a Cosmopolitan reader. I stumbled on a documentary on mediaed.org called, Flirting with Danger, which addresses Cosmopolitan’s contribution to the oversexualization of our youth.
Keep up the good work!
Just in case you’re interested:
http://www.mediaed.org/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=250
Let’s have a flash feminist flood on Omegle and see what happens!
The MRA is really really disturbing to me. I’ve never come across it, or anyone who has referenced distinctly anti-feminist/pro-masculine communities. At the same time, I don’t spend a lot of time in forums. When he said that the MRA has infiltrated every feminist group, I got really paranoid, even though it’s probably not true. His tactic of intimidation actually worked to make me question the spaces that I do spend time in online.
PS: I didn’t use Haley’s messages for this ethnography. I used the questions that she answered in public on the site. I felt like it was problematic to use her answers because she is young, and I don’t think the results of the ethnography would make sense to her if I shared (especially because I think English is her second language). There was enough information in her public responses for me to use for this project.
I think that the questionnaire ended up being a good idea because people are drawn to forums for talking about themselves. Although sometimes you can’t get as much detail from them, I think it was a good choice. It was also a good idea to not tell the peoples names…Woops, I did that. So I guess Lauren Conrad’s site is being used for self-empowerment in a post-feminist framework?
Yippeeeeeee positive stuff. That’s really cool that the tumblr exists and that you were able to find it. Furthermore, the intentionality of the site is something that you don’t see often; a blog with a reason for being, acknowledging that other spaces exclude people. And awesome that they attempt to counter hypersexualized female riders, a image that is really overdone and offensive.
Thanks for the shout out. Little Monster struggle times. I like the way that you laid your work out. It is well-organized, and made your ethnography easy to understand. It seems like tumblr reflects “reality” in that safe spaces exist, but we have to actively seek them out.
It was exciting and surprising to find that you would deem ACParadise a safe space. I would think that since people upload images of themselves, the presence of bodies on display combined with people hiding behind computer screens would make for some conflict surrounding gender and race. I guess it helps for there to be a common ground between users, especially when that common ground is creative and has an offline component.
I think what’s interesting about the Voice is that, although you say it is likely that “Scripps students are too busy with our studies or engaging in real life conversations with friends to spend additional time” on the Voice site, I don’t think I’d be reaching too far to assume that most of these girls spend a lot of time on Facebook every day. So, your question then becomes, why aren’t they willing to spend time on a forum like the Voice, posting questions and engaging in conversation? This could be because of how the site is set up, the lack of general social activity on the site, etc. But it’s interesting to note that we all spend a lot of time online, it’s just a matter of in what space our time is spent, which in your case does not seem to be the Voice’s website.
You highlight a very interesting point when you describes your friend as comparing herself to seemingly flawless women on the Cosmo website. I find that in my experience reading the magazine, I tend to unconsciously begin comparing myself as well. I think your research method is interesting; instead of just asking questions, you actually interacted with a person and had her take you through the site, which is very thorough, and based on your findings, very informative. I do understand where Martha is coming from; however I am interested to see maybe a few more peoples’ opinions regarding the site, maybe even one from a male, to broaden the research subjects to include more than just one individual (perhaps?).
Charlotte, your ethnography is really interesting and honestly a bit disturbing. I completely agree with your conclusion that the space feeds the system of communicative capitalism; that thought really never even crossed my mind, but thinking about it now, and the fact that Lady Gaga is such a capital entity, it makes complete sense. The part I find a bit disconcerting is the fact that a girl as young as Haley says she wants a peaceful world, but in all honesty it seems like she has no idea what she wants, she merely feeds into the world of Gaga. Anyway, good job Charlotte, this is really intriguing.
What I find most interesting about your research is the fact that the user Ryoko Dono, in leaving the safe space that is ACParadise and entering Facebook, was immediately faced with negativity. That observation in and of itself reveals how safe ACParadise really is, and that fact I think aids the space in being a welcoming space for the cosplay community.
Zoey,
I greatly appreciate your methods and the overall structure of your ethnography. You really jumped into tumblr. I wonder how the corporate structure behind tumblr influences this microcosm effect. Are there many ads on tumblr? Do they change depending on what microcosm you choose to inhabit? Just curious.
Good Job!
I’m truly saddened to read about the unfortunate and pervasive ignorance you experienced while exploring your site. It brings up yet another exploitation of ‘free speech’ and it’s sad that this ammendment is being used for subjugation rather than unification. I’m also curious as to why more participants in the feminist group didn’t stand up to knightrunner. Maybe they thought it was a futile effort which is, again, a testament to how unsafe this space is. One question I have pertains to the use of the phrase ‘rape culture.’ I hear the term thrown around here and there but I was wondering if I could get a definition. Thanks Daniela!
Giselle,
I think that the answers you received from Martha are a perfect example of how Cosmo and basically any other mainstream women’s magazine can be a destructive force in women’s lives. While Cosmo is VERY sex positive, it frames its sex positivity and “empowerment” to women in a very heteronormative, hegemonic way. According to Cosmo, we should not crave sex for ourselves, but rather to please the men we’re with. I think that this ideology has spilled over onto the web site and forums available. Many women readers of Cosmo will overlook and ignore what’s right in front of them, opting to engage in what’s easy to digest: makeup, sex, and fashion.
Wow, what a reminder of how our society is definitely NOT post-racial. Your post reminds me of the Myspace/Facebook exercise the class did that sort of exposed the privilege of Facebook users facilitated by the predominantly white private schools they attended. Although many of us discusses our universal privilege attending some of the best schools in the country, there is obviously still tensions and insecurities rooted in ‘white privilege.’
I find this very interesting to think about as a Lady Gaga fan. I definitely agree that Gaga has commodified the ideology of a “kinder, braver world” through music, videos, concerts, perfumes, etc. Yet, I’m wondering whether this is a way that capitalism CAN be a structure that supports feminism. Perhaps Lady Gaga’s way of creating this better world reads as more attainable to young people, women, LGBTQ, etc. because they can directly participate in an exchange. Soemthing like, “If I buy this, listen to this, wear this, then I will be closer to that perfect, accepting world that I need to survive.” It gives those marginalized members of society a form of agency in which they feel they are changing the world for the better. And for some, this feeling of agency and change can be a very powerful feeling when everything around you denies you power.
Hey Cassidy! I really enjoyed reading your piece. I’m wondering what you feel The Voice could do to be even more inclusive and represent more people of color?
It’s strange how reading Cosmo is like a masochistic act for this participant. It makes her feel insecure upon comparison with (Photoshopped) models who project literally unreal beauty standards, yet she considers herself an avid reader. Maybe the actual vocalization of her experience and feelings–a movement away from the cyber realm into the active body realm–forced her to confront the actuality of her experience in a different way. Maybe her insecurities came out because the cyber experience was being shared with another person…just a thought!
Chelsea,
I think yours and Giselle’s findings on Cosmo are very similar in that they’re both about a space in which post feminist ideology is circulating. It is obvious that many traditionally feminine women look to these resources as areas of self-improvement framed in a hegemonic, patriarchally-centered, and heteronormative way. However, like “L,” women also find empowerment through this and it’s hard to say whether it truly is an evil or a good.
Wow, Giselle, this is really insightful. I really appreciate your method of using one person as sort of a case study to observe the affects that Cosmo’s content has on a personal level!
Cassidy,
Great job, this really brings in a lot of the ideas we’ve been talking about in class. I can see how the Scripps Voice is an augmentation of the reality students have around them. Scripps and the rest of the Colleges are such a closed off entity from the rest of the world that we often don’t feel a need to carry it over to the virtual world, other than Facebook. Like you mentioned, I think students are often afraid of vocalizing their real thoughts and politics on an online platform that a whole community (peers and faculty) can see, not just who they friend on Facebook.
Hi Cindy! Hmm. Something I’m wondering about is the movement from local to broad websites. Are most of the users on LAFixed in the LA-area? Maybe Tumblr’s size, and, in turn, it’s wider membership base, allows for a larger variation of opinion. It’s good to hear that Tumblr has been more receptive to the blog. When thinking about another creative website with a larfe membership population, YouTube, I can’t help but think of frequent negative comments, trolls, and put-downs. It makes me ponder the difference between Tumblr and YouTube…
Large* lol
Cindy, I really appreciate the way you fused one of your passions into your project. Having done my project on Tumblr, I was really happy to see someone else exploring one of the sub-spaces that IS safe for women of color. I can’t wait to check out this blog!
Cindy,
I’m really happy you found this blog! I think it is exactly what feminists seek to find when looking for a safe space. And the fact that the creator is so dedicated to feminism and providing a safe space makes the difference. Although I can see what you mean in your last statement about having a clearly stated purpose, I will say that this is not always true. Often sites, like the Experience Project, which I used, do have stated purposes of building community but the site unfortunately ends up being abused by hate groups.However, this is very effective on a site like Tumblr where you can be selective of your virtual community members.
Disconnecting from a conversation so easily could make Omegle a frustrating space to continue the intellectual conversations at. However, I also think that the possibility of disconnecting makes Omegle a safe space. At any time you feel uncomfortable engaging with someone, it allows you to disconnect right away even without thinking.
It was great that you took a different approach to talk to the users on your site. I definitely agree with you thinking beauty for self-improvement has elements of feminism. Conrad’s site may not be intended for feminism and the site does not emphasize heavily on the perspectives of feminism. This could be the reason that the users and the site possibly don’t seem like they are feminists. However, I wondered if the users just wanted to deny the fact that they could be potential feminists.
I think your ethnography is very well-written, especially with analyzing the site users’ messages. It is definitely interesting to read that although the users notice the Internet as a racist space in general and feel lucky to be a part of a non-racist space. I was fascinated to see your conclusion, especially because I would have guessed from the surface that the costumes play community would be a safe space for women.
I definitely agree that Tumblr is both safe and unsafe. The people that I follow are mostly people of color who post on a variety of issues, and call themselves feminist. I’ve created my own little bubble of like-minded people, but I have also seen posts where people are attacked for expressing their opinion.
To answer one of the question posed by Alejandra Rishton, they didn’t have ads until recently.
The comment about the branding of Girl’s Generation is particularly interesting and it’s really clear how these girls are being used as a marketing tool to perpetuate the corporate music industry. The band name in itself ‘Girl’s Generation’ is really scary because it implies that this generation of females is represented by women who ultimately cater to men in various ways (aesthetically, sexually, commercially). Even the band members who take on more ‘boyish’ roles seems gimicky–sort of like the Spice Girls each had a manufactured identity meant to rope in more fans. Again, like the Spice Girls and their coined phrase ‘Girl Power,’ Girl’s Generation distorts this idea of what it truly means to be a ‘feminist.’
It’d be interesting to see what their take on Lauren Conrad would be, since they all have agreed to use her site. Do the users consider her to be feminist? Why did they choose her site over other fashion/make-up blogs?
I agree with Alejandra. It would be fascinating to see what would happen if we got thousands of feminists from all over the world to log on at once and turn the conversations to feminism!
You definitely had an in-depth interview. I think the relationship between feminism and the (self)image of women is so hard to clarify and define. I think it would be great for you to refer to Chelsea’s ethnography as well.
Hey Chelsea, this is great. I’m curious about race in your space. Was there any place to bring up race in a way that you didn’t see in your space?
I was wondering the same thing as Zoe. Also, I feel like your space (loosely) connects to the ideas in Gisele’s space (Cosmo), because they both deal with ideas of beauty.
As I have been talking to my friends about what we do in the class, your experience on your online space has been one my favorite to share. People think I am exaggerating when I say a group of mens rights activists troll the internet harassing people engaging in feminist discussion with their ridiculous ideology and lies, but clearly, it is a very real issue. It is sad to hear that this leads to a feminist community that is either afraid to speak up or tired of defending themselves, which shouldn’t be the case in a space created for people to productively engage with others who also identify as feminists about feminist issues. Although I see that censorship is a slippery slope, but the internet needs to divise a system to actively identify and remove people who are essentially online community terrorists.
She’s so young! I feel like many of the users of the site would be around that age group, and fans of similar pop artists like Jonas Brothers, Miley Cyrus, Selena Gomez, etc. I feel like at this age all you want to do is find a community or a group of friends that is accepting, so when provided an outlet like this, it’s easy to believe everything it tells you. It’s easy to fall into this “movement.”
It is very fascinating that your subject Haley did not reveal her demographic information. I feel like in real life when we assert something important, we reveal our information to make our argument more believable and credential. However, for Haley to just post stuff about Gaga and her ideas of a ‘better’ world gives all that power to Haley to become an authoritative character on the site.
I was so shocked when you presented on the MRA’s to class. Especially because it’s not just trolling, they actually believe what they are saying! I found this site http://news.mensactivism.org/ where it’s basically a whole forum for MRA’s.
The first thing that struck me about your ethnography was how you noticed the reader shifted from the first person to third person point of view when she began to discuss the fashion portion of the magazine. I see so many women who have developed this harmful ‘I’ (inferior) vs. ‘her'(superior) complex from engaging with magazines such as Cosmo and even from looking online at Facebook. It really upsets me how often I find people comparing themselves to others as if who they are themselves isn’t just as amazing. It is crushing to watch women ignore and even hate their own beauty as they constantly strive to reach a weird standard of beauty that is not necessarily even what beauty really is at all…if that makes sense. And what is crazy is how, despite their images reinforcing our societal standard of beauty as ‘white, heterosexual, slim women’, from my experience, many women that fit that description are still deeply insecure and self-conscious about their image because the standard they present is so ridiculous. Young women of all shapes, sizes, colors and cultures should have strong female role models to look up to as an alternative to these alienating images. However, while it is possible to stop reading cosmo, the unfortunate thing is how prevalent these confidence crushing images and ideas are inescapable. Looking at issues like these feels defeating because it is hard to imagine a feasible solution to the problem for our future generations!
I find it appalling that men can actually believe they are being oppressed by feminists in anyway. I’ve read numerous internet accounts of MRA’s but in other communities, you can filter out the unwanted voices. Its so sad that you have no control over that on EP. How do you create a safe space for yourself then?
This post is great, I think it is comforting and inspiring to find ‘the silver lining’ to problematic websites like LA Fixed. The fact that you were not alone in feeling excluded and unsafe in their space and found someone else who had created a new and improved (and actually safe) place is very cool. I also love the fact that she responded so quickly and thoroughly to your questions, she had some great things to say and really reflected the same topics you presented about in class and here in your ethnography.
The way you wrote your ethnography is really amazing. I love the way it flows and the way you sort of teased out all the ways in which she sort of gave herself away in her speaking about Cosmo. But I wonder how the website and the magazine can be separated so that we can find an understanding of how people use the website or the forums to create a space for themselves? Are they trolling? Are they genuine users? what are genuine users?
I want to respond to Alejandra Rishton.
Tumblr does not have ads. But I do believe that there are tumblr’s run by corporate funds with the purpose of advertising, because tumblr will track what you like and may suggest something for you. But the chances of you paying attention to the “one and only” suggestion are very slim because of the way the UI is created.
@Original Poster
I really enjoyed your ethnography. It’s very “by the book”, which is awesome, and that you cited our work is great too! I wish i could have seen the photo’s you posted, but all in all, I think you did a great job of answering all the questions that I would have asked of you. 😛
I feel like this conversation with the users on Soshified could have been more indepth, because as a K-popfan girl I understand how these conversations can immediately call for negative responses, especially when you are seeking clearer and stronger ideas than just “Don’t talk bad about SNSD!!”, which I gather was the majority of your findings. Had the discussion been more simplistic, like asking if the girls in SNSD, in spite of their sexualization, carry themselves as respectable agents of their own sexuality and if that comes across in the appearances they make on television, I think would have been a better way of approaching the subject. However, that depends on how old the users were, because I’m also assuming these were teenagers that you were working with?
I really loved your ethnography and the detail you put into your writing. I have had similar experiences on the Craigslist Queer Forum. People would initiate political and thought provoking conversations that represented feminist values but the threads would just become vicious attacks. It’s weird how these attacks are becoming the norm in spaces where people are made to feel comfortable. Violence as a technology
?
I really loved the sentences, “The majority of the comments mentioned that the labels, which different girl groups are signed to, affect the image of girl groups. Thus, it may be disturbing to some people”. This struck a cord with me because I just had a discussion about Lana Del Rey and her queering of American pride and presentation is now nationwide. But there is truth to the users comments about the greater industry. I feel as if these girls are further reinforced within socialized narratives of gender.
I really loved your findings especially how you picked up on something so implicit. it is great to see how the language she used to denote other concepts and themes. As a male, I do not look through these pages for body image reinforcement but for appreciation. And now I see that the appreciation of such an Anglo Saxon body further carries the stereotypes perpetuated. I find my sisters using these magazines and now I shall conjure up discussion as to how they feel when reading the magazine because I want to see if I get the same results. Amazing work and really interesting.
the ability to disconnect for me would appear as a mode of exercising agency in a site where anonymity is key. But it also alludes to the questioning of the purposes. This site has not been set up as a place for conversation, but merely a pass time. I find through my experiences that there are more men, or masculine avatars, then there are women, or feminine avatars. What does the body of the population within this space say about the space itself? How is sexuality being augmented through anonymity? Would we find these individuals approaching each other in the same manner when in real life? How does x-reality augment this space?
Great job with your ethnography, Zoey!
I do think that Tumblr can be a little tricky in terms of deciding whether it is a feminist/anti-racist space or not. Participants have the option of expressing themselves in the many ways in which they’d like and that can include in ways that are racist/non-racist or feminist/non-feminist, just to name a few, depending on what their personal space (blog) includes and excludes.
As a non-Tumblr user, I’d like to explore the site a little more to get a better sense of what topics can be found (or not) on the site and see how “the rules,” if there are any, can affect what is shown or not.
It’s interesting to see how members of the “I am a feminist” community join and automatically assume that this is going to be THEIR safe space to share whatever feminist thoughts they would desire. It seems to me like seeing the word, “feminist,” on the title automatically puts their guards down and ultimately has them participate and perpetuate these non-feminist thoughts that are already taking place on the site simply because the words “feminist” exist in this space. It is not until they have direct attacks that many of these participants can begin to recognize that the site is in fact a non-feminist/racist space. As with Cosmopolitan, many women don’t see the subtle non-feminist content that exist within the site because there is no one in the space to directly attack them as feminist. It is not until you get to the forums and begin the discussion that you begin to see more direct attacks and the truths of the non-feminist content.
Leo, This is a powerful study rendered with a great deal of nuance and care. Your operating question, “How do threads become dialogues of attack?” is illustrated and then theorized to help us to understand how attacks work as technologies of power to regulate and silence more than to produce content or community. Could you remake this space? If not, what kind of queer forum would you like to see?
Hannah: Your nuancing of three sorts of Tumblr spaces–a place for women, a place for feminists, a place that is supportive–is quite useful. And Leo’s ethnography and yours are similar in their structural tension between support/attack. In this regard, Jessica’s responses are quite informative.
My favorite line in your piece is your idea that “feminism is something you experience rather than only a political statement.” That is a wonderful rubric, and one that allows us to understand, efficiently, that this place can not be feminist, even though feminists come there. Structures of conversation and interaction are part of this puzzle to be sure.
I am most interested in two of the ideas expressed by your respondents: not having comments might be a good thing because writers are afraid of possibly offending people. There is a sensitivity and self-awareness in the feminist columnist’s response that I find instructive but the idea that such sensitivity leads to fear of debate or difficult conversation is also worthy of attention. How could feminists disagree without attack?
Your class mates’ comments say it all: well-written, subtle, and a great method to learn what you might not know on your own!
Your findings about clearly stating goals, principles, intentions and ideologies is really important. Also, the idea of ideology-neutrality as a form of covert oppression in crtical!
Yes, this format made it readable and informative. Your research methods also allowed you to speak to a range of informed respondents who allowed you to draw useful conclusions about active rather than passive politics.
Your comments about potentiality rather than actuality or use are really helpful for us: what other norms, checks, systems, structures inhere to this place to transform the culture to be about light, inane, sexuality above all other possibilities?
Your study points to our earlier considerations about post-feminism and self-improvement. It would be interesting to pursue this further with L.
You have engaged in a useful ethnography, engaging with an articulate interlocutor, that allows us all to see that a post-feminist self-improvement narrative, played through a feminist/activist vocabulary, engenders a new feminism that emboldens us to buy.
Okay, high sexualised? I’m sorry, what about Girls Generation has been high sexualised?
I could argue that their lyrics are often meant to be cutesy and “when will I find my boy” and stuff like that. But they sing about boys to the same extent that men sing about girls. SNSD also happen to sing about their families (Dear Mom, Indestructible, Flyers), each other (Forever, Girls) and sometimes even the god damn economy (Ha ha ha). They frequently feature in dramas and CFs as women of substance, be it detectives, celebrities, CEOs, journalists. They have concepts that range from your typical girl next door types (2007-2010, disregarding Genie, Hoot and RDR which discounts basically half of their comeback stages) to powerful women (The Boyes), to trendy (IGAB) to power again (Mr Mr).
Not to mention their most popular Japanese single, Papparazzi, mentioned men only in passing, and was about living life as a highly sort after icon.
This article is full of blatant misrepresentations of an otherwise very empowered girl group. All the members have attended university, with the most recent graduate being Seohyun, the youngest. They all have extreme talent and diverse abilities outside of idoldom (save for perhaps Hyoyeon, who is a dancing machine and makes for an incredible on screen personality).
Clearly, whoever wrote this article doing so with an agenda they set out to prove. No, female representation in KPOP in NOT perfect, and yes, gender equality in South Korea is FAR from ideal.
But you know what’s not going to get you anywhere in delving into this topic? Literally stripping down a group of talented, diverse, intelligent idols that are on top of the Korean music industry, and reduce them to sex objects for male pleasure so that you can shoe horn whatever opinions you see are relevant in regards to your feelings towards them.
The majority of SNSD aren’t men, and are actually girls below the age of 18.
Try again.
The majority of SNSD fans aren’t men, and are actually girls below the age of 18.
Try again.